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Talk:Infinite Tsukuyomi/Archive 2
Mechanics This might be troublesome. Ok, 678 made it clear that this is a Rinnegan genjutsu. Based on that, I believe that what old Madara showed Obito is not IT. I now believe that to be just Genjutsu: Sharingan, much like Itachi did with Sasuke when they fought, and he showed Madara's history via genjutsu. On them having similar effects, I believe that's a case jutsu homology if you can call it like that. You can use many different jutsu to make explosions, that doesn't mean they're the same for example. Thoughts? Omnibender - Talk - 21:25, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :Madara said that it's Mugen Tsukuyomi back then, didn't he? • Seelentau 愛 議 21:29, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :Madara implied he was able to create the white space and manipulate it because he was connected to the Demonic Statue, so even if it isn't the same as the actual "Infinite Tsukuyomi", it isn't just regular genjutsu either. Basically, it's the canon equivalent of "Limited Tsukuyomi", except we don't have a proper name for it other than.--BeyondRed (talk) 21:36, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :: No. He never did. He just said that was how the Genjutsu would work. Obito is the one who said he'd use the Sharingan to cast the IT. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 21:38, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :::When you say Obito did that, you mean when he declared the ninja war on the Kage right? Unless I'm mistaken, he only said he'd use the moon to reflect his eye or his eye power to cast it. At the time, he only had the Sharingan, so we assumed it was a Sharingan genjutsu. About being connected to the statue, I think that's supposed to be a stand-in for the Ten-Tails. Madara didn't have the beast, and didn't have the actual eye necessary for the genjutsu (the forehead one), so he used a poor-man's version of the technique. Omnibender - Talk - 23:08, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :::: I could've sworn he said he'd reflect his Sharingan on the moon, but you may be right. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 23:21, May 28, 2014 (UTC) @Omni, still in the end, it means that what old Madara did was Infinite Tsukuyomi, just a weaker version of it. Kinda like Izanagi and Creation of all things work on the same principle. This begs the question about the infobox tho. What should it convey, chronologically original use (with Rinnegan) or the lowest requirement to cast it (Sharingan) ?--Elveonora (talk) 12:53, May 29, 2014 (UTC) :But does it mean he used it? For the sake of comparison, general skill listing aside, would we list Naruto as a Clone Technique (not Shadow Clone Technique) user based on the awful clones he made during his Academy exam? Sure, clones were made, but compare them to the actual ones created by the technique. Omnibender - Talk - 18:51, May 29, 2014 (UTC) :Well, the purple Rinnegan can't use genjutsu, only the red one. So technically, it still stems from the "Sharingan" part of it. Stuff getting hard for us to document lol. I think in such an unique case, the infobox should show Rinnegan (but with red 9 tomoe icon) and Sharingan too--Elveonora (talk) 20:04, May 29, 2014 (UTC) ::I'm not exactly aware of how technically feasible it is to change the icon for just this technique, but I think that the easier way is to go Tengai Shinsei, list both Sharingan and Rinnegan. Does that mean we drop Madara telling Obito tales as IT? Omnibender - Talk - 00:54, June 1, 2014 (UTC) :::Nah, Madara said tales to have been IT so it's just that. Obviously it's done with the Sharingan part of Rinnegan so Sharingan can do it too--Elveonora (talk) 13:11, June 1, 2014 (UTC) ::::Except he doesn't. Specially now that we know that IT apparently changes people into White Zetsu, what Madara did to Obito really can't be IT. Omnibender - Talk - 21:33, June 4, 2014 (UTC) :::::Infinite Tsukuyomi doesn't change people into White Zetsus, being encased in the cocoon does.--Elveonora (talk) 21:54, June 4, 2014 (UTC) Why is this a debate? It was explicitly stated that the Infinite Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu created by a Rinnegan. Not the Sharingan, or anything else. I thought we went by what the manga states. WindStar7125 (talk) 22:00, June 4, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125 @Elveonora After IT has reeled them in. Still, knowing what it is and the scope of what it does, calling what Madara did to Obito IT is like saying that Rasengan is the same as Multiple Tailed Beast Ball Rasenshuriken. @WindStar7125 Because Hagoromo said his mother used her dōjutsu, which included the "power of the Sharingan" to cast the technique. Omnibender - Talk - 22:01, June 4, 2014 (UTC) :God: Nativity of a World of Trees reeled them in, not IT. @Windstar, Because in the very chapter of Obito flashback, Madara himself stated it to be Infinite Tsukuyomi and that he can do so thanks to being connected to Gedo Mazo, that's why--Elveonora (talk) 22:04, June 4, 2014 (UTC) ::Except he never actually says that is IT. He says that while connected to the statue, he can make the blank world into anything he wishes. But with just a regular Sharingan, it can't be an actual IT, hence my Rasengan comparison. Omnibender - Talk - 22:11, June 4, 2014 (UTC) The technique... ...affects every single living being on the world equally. Thus, we would technically have to list this on every character article under a "Return of Madara Arc" section and technically, we should also list them as "incapacitated". Sounds like a hell of a ton of work, so I guess it's not gonna happen, right? Idontcareaboutmyname (talk) 22:34, May 31, 2014 (UTC) :Since this is just a temporary status, we won't change it. If it was only for one or two characters, it wouldn't be a problem, but the way it is, it's just too much work. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:59, May 31, 2014 (UTC) ::Yeah, poor Tora--Elveonora (talk) 13:09, June 1, 2014 (UTC) I think Kaguya's article has got it wrong It says she did IT to bring peace. Can anyone reference that? How is turning everyone into plant-men for an amusement an equivalent of peace?--Elveonora (talk) 16:17, June 4, 2014 (UTC) :The Sage said she did it to achieve peace. Or something. Her goals were peace. If she believes peace is becoming a eternal soldier then yeah. Peace achieved.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 16:27, June 4, 2014 (UTC) ::Except a soldier is used for battling, so creating pawns of war doesn't really achieve piece--Elveonora (talk) 16:31, June 4, 2014 (UTC) :::In whatever twisted way she perceived it, it was peace, like, beat the hell out of anyone who disrupts peace. Omnibender - Talk - 18:17, June 4, 2014 (UTC) ::::Well, it's evident her ways were warped due her huge power and her increasing hubris. I think we should mention that change of mentally on her Personality section, however probably we need to wait some chapters to see the details of her character and her real motivations. Adept-eX (talk) 19:07, June 4, 2014 (UTC) 1. Just look at Madara for instance. His view of peace was basically the exact same thing as Kaguya. Cast the IT and put everyone under it. 2. How can we change her "mentality" or personality when we don't know how she was BEFORE eating the fruit? We don't know how she was or how she thought before hand. I doubt we'll find out how she truly was either the way the manga has been jumping around. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 07:12, June 9, 2014 (UTC) Translation So, I know this will make me very unpopular, but I'm going to bring it up anyways. When we created the Six Paths Sage Technique article, the argument used for not naming it "Six Paths Senjutsu", which was the term actually used in the English release of the chapters, was because Seel didn't find it very appropriate to translate part of the name into English, while leaving the rest in Japanese. So... what is the logic behind doing that here? If that's our "standard" should we move this page to "Mugen Tsukuyomi" or "Infinite Moon Reader"? Don't laugh this off. Legitimate question here. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 07:19, June 7, 2014 (UTC) :Tsukuyomi is a name, while Senjutsu is a term. We translate terms, but not names. Also, we don't translate historical stuff, as far as I know. • Seelentau 愛 議 07:44, June 7, 2014 (UTC) ::What he said. Tsukuyomi is a deity, they don't get translated, since that would be a blasphemy. The Kanji 月読 are meant to be read together as one in this case, not separately. So instead of translating to "moon reader" it translates to Tsukuyomi, because 月 reads in Japanese as "tsuku/i" and 読 as "yomi". Same for Chidori, the correct English translation also is Chidori, not "one thousand birds"--Elveonora (talk) 10:11, June 7, 2014 (UTC) :::Na, that's not entirely correct, either. 月読 literally means Moonreading, but it stems from a deity and we don't translate words that have such a background. Chidori isn't translated because, alongside the Rasengan, it's one of the signature techniques and every reader know it under that name. If it was just a random technique used once, we'd translate it, too. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:42, June 7, 2014 (UTC) ::::I wouldn't say it's because of being signature. Isn't Chidori in the context of Naruto also correctly supposed to be translated as Chidori since it refers to a sword with that name rather than a bird? And names generally do not translate.--Elveonora (talk) 15:32, June 7, 2014 (UTC) :::::I gotta admit, this does bring up a good point in consistency. Yasaka Magatama by removing the "no' in between, Sword of Totsuka/Kusanagi instead of Name no Tsurugi. Chidori vs Lightning Cutter (instead of Raikiri), as Raikiri is actually a name for the same sword, so should become Raikiri instead of a direct English translation. So many inconsistencies, which should Mugen Tsukuyomi should follow? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 16:06, June 7, 2014 (UTC) ::::::You are correct. In my opinion Lightning Cutter should be changed to Raikiri--Elveonora (talk) 16:18, June 7, 2014 (UTC) ::::::: That's exactly my point. This nonsense about Tsukuyomi being a deity has nothing to do with why it wasn't translated. We don't translate Tsukuyomi in this case, we don't translate Chidori or Rasengan (Rasengan of which, while I agree with it staying as it is, goes against the supposed "naming standards"), but we do translate Raikiri... There is clearly a breaking of standard in this cluster. The fact that "Senjutsu" is a term bears no more merit than "Rasengan" since, translation wise, the name has no significance. I just wanted to know why we only apply such standards to some articles and not all of them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 16:30, June 7, 2014 (UTC) I can only repeat what ShounenSuki said: We don't translate Rasengan and Chidori because they're the signature moves and known as Rasengan and Chidori, while Raikiri isn't (deemed) a signature move and is therefor translated. We don't translate Tsukuyomi because it stems from a deity's name which aren't meant to be translated, because we'd lose the mythical background. Raikiri is no such deity or mythical being, so I don't think we should handle it like one. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:44, June 7, 2014 (UTC) :True. For example, in the English Dub, Kakashi's technique is "Lightning Blade," but Rasengan and Chidori aren't translated to English in the Dub. Tsukuyomi as well, Itachi doesn't say "Moon Reader!" when he activates it. These techniques are known by these names in the English manga and anime, some are translated and some aren't, that's just how it is. WindStar7125 (talk) 16:51, June 7, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125 "The name Raikiri comes from a story about famous samurai Tachibana Dōsetsu (立花道雪, Tachibana Dōsetsu) (22 April 1513–2 November 1585). Tachibana was in possession of a famous sword called Chidori (千鳥; Literally meaning "A Thousand Birds"). One day, while he was still a young man, he was taking shelter under a tree, as it was raining. Suddenly, a bolt of lightning struck him. However, Tachibana used his Chidori to cut the Thunder God inside the lightning bolt, allowing him to survive. After this incident, he renamed his Chidori to Raikiri (雷切; Literally meaning "Lightning Cutter")" How isn't that a mythical background?--Elveonora (talk) 17:08, June 7, 2014 (UTC) : To be completely honest, and I'm trying to be respectful here, but why is ShonenSuki still a presence on this wiki even though he's lost interest and is long gone? I get it. He was a very well respected translator, not just here, but elsewhere. That being said, we can think for ourselves, and clearly see where there is a discrepancy. No need to continue beating a dead horse over a translator that is no longer with us, nor cares to be with us. His reasoning isn't exactly solid either. Edit: Furthermore, I'm not suggesting we translate "Tsukuyomi". I'm saying that, if you're going to demand that "Six Paths Sage Technique" be named so, rather than "Six Paths Senjutsu" because we'd be translating the name into half-English, half-Japanese, then the same standard needs to be applied here, and the article needs to be renamed "Mugen Tsukuyomi". ~ Ten Tailed Fox 17:15, June 7, 2014 (UTC) ::TTF has a point. However, this technique has been referred as both "Mugen Tsukuyomi" and "Infinite Tsukuyomi" in the English Manga multiple times, so what do we do? Yea, I know "Raikiri" has been used multiple times @Elve, and comes from a story, but it is more well known as "Lightning Blade." Naruto's technique is more well known as the "Rasengan," not "Spiraling Sphere." Same with "Chidori" over "A Thousand Birds." Same with "Tsukuyomi" over "Moon Reader." I think we should just go with the language/translation a technique is more recognized as. WindStar7125 (talk) 18:04, June 7, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125 I don't think we should conform ourselves to fanbase standards at all. There was this guy that wanted us to rename Big Ball Rasengan to Super Rasengan or some nonsense like that just because apparently it's more known by that term among the fans and that's an absolute nonsense. So whatever the reason for our translation should be, it shouldn't be popularity but rather consistency so if we go with the reasoning of mythological background or otherwise famous name, we should use the Japanese spelling. But Infinite Tsukuyomi is a tough one. While the Tsukuyomi part shouldn't be translated, what about the Infinite? Should not it be Mugen so we don't use half-English/half-Japanese terms as brought up by Foxie? Although even much greater problem if we go with the "Japanese only when mythological/famous name" is the Sharingan. Because if we go with such a consistency, then it would have to be renamed into Copy Wheel Eye ._.--Elveonora (talk) 11:51, June 8, 2014 (UTC) :If you're gonna rename Sharingan to Copy Wheel Eye because muh consistency, I'm out. I mean, come on, guys. We've had it like this for all the time and now one or two users disagree and suddenly, everything needs to change? • Seelentau 愛 議 11:55, June 8, 2014 (UTC) ::I hear you, but we are either completely anal about things or we pick and choose. So if Foxie wants consistency then Copy Wheel Eye it is :P It's not referred to as Sharingan in the English manga either, is it?--Elveonora (talk) 12:01, June 8, 2014 (UTC) :::This has been some weekend huh. :::Anyway, as a bit of clarification on how naming conventions has worked up until now because it would seem things are being misunderstood. ::::Naming Convention has always been :::::Character Name follows Western Order :::::Villages are partially untranslated (a revision of being purely untranslated, for example Konoha was Konohagakure no Sato, until we dropped the no Sato because it wasn't needed and everyone who used the site understood Konoha.) :::::Locations would be Translated. (For example, Hi no Kuni became Land of Fire. :::::Techniques are translated ::::::With a few exceptions, all techniques are fully translated to their literal English translations. ::::::Jutsu categories are left untranslated, this was again done because most would understand the untranslated phrase just fine. So instead of having "Ninja Techniques" we just use Ninjutsu. Since then new things have been added such as Senjutsu, Fuinjutsu, and the like, which as categories would fall under this umbrella. ::::::*For example, Kage Bunshin no Jutsu becomes Shadow Clone Technique. This was done because of the various translations that this technique had , such as Art of the Shadow Doppelganger, and Art of Shadow Body Splitting. :::::Kekkei Genkai, in an effort to exemplify their importance, are left untranslated. Sharingan remains Sharingan instead of becoming Copy Wheel Eye. Amaterasu is Amaterasu instead of Heavenly Illumination. :::::The exception to this are the elemental transformations. Nature Transformations, to fit with the naming structure of other techniques are also literally translated. For example Hyōton is translated into Ice Release to fit consistently with other techniques. :::::Being the two most well known techniques at the time, Chidori and Rasengan and their derived techniques were left untranslated, again as a sort of prestige. This held until Kishimoto started making things like Rasentairengan, where it was slightly modified so only the "Rasengan" and "Chidori" are left untranslated. ::There are some inconsistencies, (Mount Myōboku should be Mysterious/Exquisite Tree Mountain, the above instance of using Six Paths Sage Transformation instead of Senjutsu), but that is the translation in a nutshell. ::In terms of this technique, because Tsukuyomi is a Kekkei Genkai technique, that would remain untranslated, while the word Infinite be used instead of "Mugen", similar to how Transcription Seal: Amaterasu is named such.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 17:54, June 8, 2014 (UTC) :::Also, now that I've been made aware, yes Yasaka Magatama should be Yasaka no Magatama due to being a kekkei genkai tech.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 18:24, June 8, 2014 (UTC) ::::Oh and I forgot, proper names for objects would be left untranslated, the Sword of Totsuka, the "Totsuka" being the proper name, is left as is, instead of becoming "Ten Hands". The Seven Swordsmen's swords are all left untranslated because those are their proper names.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 18:28, June 8, 2014 (UTC) Agree with most of what you said, but you lost me at the Amaterasu. Amaterasu isn't Amaterasu because it's a kekkei genkai, that's because of the whole deity/cultural significance thing. We have quite some kekkei genkai techniques that aren't translated. There are two Sharingan "Demonic Illusion" genjutsu, as well as all of Shikotsumyaku techniques. Every Gentle Fist technique, which require Byakugan. Sakon and Ukon's merging techniques. Yasaka Magatama, despite the look, is a translated technique, it simply happens that "magatama" is an actual thing, a type of jewel. I brought the topic of how that technique should be translated when it first showed, it still in that talk page. Omnibender - Talk - 21:33, June 8, 2014 (UTC) :Really? Well then I stand corrected.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 21:37, June 8, 2014 (UTC) ::The topic in question is this. Omnibender - Talk - 21:40, June 8, 2014 (UTC) ::: Edit: I see that TheUltimate actually answered my question. No further complaints. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 01:55, June 9, 2014 (UTC) Okay, how about this: we use either PURE translation (Ice Release, Blaze Release, etc.) or PURE Japanese (Mugen Tsukuyomi, Yasaka no Magatama, etc.)? I mean, Yasaka Magatama is just... really? You just take out the "no", what on Earth? Why not at least say Yasaka Beads? This is really... yeah. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 05:44, June 9, 2014 (UTC) "white zetsu ain't affected" http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/000/322/779/473.jpg Orochimaru would like to have a talk with ya. Guruguru seemingly doesn't have a brain, there's nothing to affect, he is unique. Ordinary White Zetsu have eyes, so logic would have it that so must they have a brain too.--Elveonora (talk) 13:54, June 15, 2014 (UTC) :How can something they're already under affect then again? It's like casing genjutsu on someone already under genjutsu...--Cerez365™ (talk) 14:06, June 15, 2014 (UTC) ::Read again _^--Elveonora (talk) 14:24, June 15, 2014 (UTC) :::Long story short, Orochimaru is inside of White Zetsu and he got caught, therefore WZ aren't immune. Guruguru and Black Zetsu most likely weren't caught because they lack brain or purposely weren't targeted--Elveonora (talk) 14:29, June 15, 2014 (UTC) ::::Technically, we don't know if Guruguru doesn't have a brain. Or any of the Zetsu for that matter, just because they don't have skulls don't mean through some ninja magic their brains aren't in their structure somewhere. ::::Also technically, Orochimaru may be using a Black Zetsu as a new body, but he isn't a White Zetsu. So even if White Zetsu were immune to the Infinite Tsukuyomi, that doesn't mean Orochimaru would be as well. ::::And finally, I believe I pointed out that Madara probably not aiming for the things that were already under his control anyway, so shrug.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 16:53, June 15, 2014 (UTC) Sharingan/Rinnegan Technique It seems to me that this technique requires the combined power of the Sharingan and Rinnegan, similar to Tengai Shinsei. Kaguya and Madara each used this technique through their forehead eye, which held the traits of both dōjutsu. Similarly, Obito attempted to perform this technique with the Rinnegan in his left eye and Sharingan in his right eye.—Steveo920(Talk) 18:52, July 17, 2014 :Was called Rinnegan tech tho, that's what we go with.--Elveonora (talk) 23:22, July 31, 2014 (UTC) Where was it specifically called a Rinnegan technique? Also, I admit that the Rinnegan is the basis of the technique, but let's not forget that Hagoromo's Rinnegan and Madara's main Rinnegan were never stated to have genjutsu abilities. Madara had to do it with his red Rinnegan. Hagoromo specifically said Kaguya had the power of the Sharingan and used its abilities to perform Infinite Tsukuyomi.—(Talk) 21:29, July 17, 2014 ::Nope, Obito needed the eye of the tree to cast. Arrancar79 (talk) 02:02, August 1, 2014 (UTC) The Shinju's eye was a tomoe Rinnegan like Kaguya and Madara's third eye.—Steveo920(Talk) 22:26, July 17, 2014 Red Rinnegan is still Rinnegan, so not sure what your point is. Also Sasuke's Rinnegan despite not being red, but having tomoe can counter and undo Infinite Tsukuyomi, so yeah, it's a Rinnegan tech--Elveonora (talk) 12:53, August 1, 2014 (UTC) Also, Obito didn't keep his sharingan to aid him in the using the Infinite Tsukuyomi as was suggested above. He kept it as he using both Rinnegan would have drained him of his chakra. He stated that quite recently I believe.--Soul reaper (talk) 13:20, August 1, 2014 (UTC) :It can be used with 3T Sharingan. Madara did so on Obito, I believe. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:41, August 1, 2014 (UTC) ::While being connected to the Ten-Tails' body I believe.--Elveonora (talk) 13:55, August 1, 2014 (UTC) Shinju I already asked this, but it got mostly ignored. Should the Shinju be considered a user, even though it's just a tool in the process?--Elveonora (talk) 21:40, August 31, 2014 (UTC) :Could the original tree use this? No? There you have your answer. I don't consider the replica in the war a real Shinju. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:42, August 31, 2014 (UTC) ::Well, it was called as such. And Kakashi originally couldn't use Sharingan either if that's a valid comparison.--Elveonora (talk) 21:48, August 31, 2014 (UTC) :::The tree in the war was more a tree form of the TT. The original tree didn't have the TB chakra, hm? And no, that's not a valid comparison, lol. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:51, August 31, 2014 (UTC) ::::I don't think that's right, I already brought that up somewhere. The assumption that the tree was Ten-Tails' final form is most likely wrong, since: * its chronologically first appearances were of a monster * Gyuki wasn't even around to observe the Ten-Tails/Shinju Also it was again and again called "holy tree". Even Hashirama said God: Root Orgy Jutsu victims are connected to Shinju, not the Ten-Tails--Elveonora (talk) 21:55, August 31, 2014 (UTC) :I don't think it should be. People created and used jutsu. I don't think the original Shinju had an eye in its leaves. Apart from that, I assume that tailed beasts carry cognizance before the point of being created. They're just chakra after all.--Cerez365™ (talk) 22:00, August 31, 2014 (UTC) ::If that were true, then Kurama would have known that the Ten-Tails isn't an angry tree but angry Kaguya, not even Hagoromo knew that.--Elveonora (talk) 22:02, August 31, 2014 (UTC) :::I think you misunderstood, Elve. I mean that the tree in the war is, just like the rabbit, a form the TT can assume, based on the user (or so). The original tree had nothing to do with the TB chakra and those, it was just a tree. No eye, no special powers, nothing. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:10, August 31, 2014 (UTC) ::::Wow, @Tau. I feel the same way about the replica Obito summoned. It was more of the Ten-Tails in the likeness of the Shinju IMO. The original Shinju didn't have the Rinnegan. --[[User:WindStar7125|''WindStar7125]] (Talk) 22:22, August 31, 2014 (UTC) :::::More like Shinju in the likeness of the Ten-Tails.--Elveonora (talk) 11:56, September 1, 2014 (UTC) Release Seal I was reading the viz translation for chapter 692 and Hagoromo says that to undo the Infinite Tsukiyomi, they have to use the power of the Tailed Beasts and the Rinnegan, along with them both doing the Rat Seal. I don't know what the Japanese one, says but I thought it be helpful for the article.--Narutofox94 (talk) 00:34, October 1, 2014 (UTC) :I already noticed that when I read the raw, though I have no idea what exactly he meant. If he really just meant the hand seal for ''rat, it would be very... easy. But yeah, it should be added anyways. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:46, October 1, 2014 (UTC) :: It would make sense as to why Kurama said if it was that simple. Also shocked you responded and I thank you taking the time to read my suggestion.--Narutofox94 (talk) 19:32, October 1, 2014 (UTC) :::No matter it gets ignored now. We will see the technique get released eventually, so it then will be added anyway--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 19:44, October 1, 2014 (UTC) Guruguru Guruguru was affected, wasn't he? I mean he was last seen crumbling when Infinite Tsukuyomi dispelled. Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 21:07, November 26, 2014 (UTC) :He wasn't affected by the genjutsu. He crumbled because God: Nativity of a world of trees got released for whatever reason--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 14:15, November 27, 2014 (UTC) :: Ah yes, he unwrapped Yamato and he was active, during that time.Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 16:08, November 28, 2014 (UTC) Kaguya's version I need confirmation that she used her Rinnesharingan for Infinite Tsukuyomi without the moon, because there was no moon at that time. Is there any proof she used no moon if not can we include that she used Rinnesharingan directly? Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 15:37, November 30, 2014 (UTC) :Well, she certainly didn't use the moon she was sealed in as the Gedo Mazo. What moon could she use? ~•[[User:WindStar7125|''WS7125]]Mod 15:41, November 30, 2014 (UTC) ::Of course there is no moon, I apologise I did not elaborate, I mean the white Zetsu especially Guruguru was the first victim in the past for Infinite Tsukuyomi, so she might have used her RinneSharingan directly and not in large scale requiring moon but using it in small scale, we are not sure what she did but there is no moon, that is why I asked for confirmation?Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 16:10, November 30, 2014 (UTC) :::Not one of us can answer that question fully but Kishi. All we know is that there was no moon when Kaguya first used the Infinite Tsukuyomi. Do with that what you will. ~•[[User:WindStar7125|WS7125]]Mod 16:21, November 30, 2014 (UTC) ::::Oh okay I will wait and it's also not explained in DB. I think they will show in the movie.Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 17:00, November 30, 2014 (UTC) :::::You can use the Mugen Tsukuyomi without the moon. Iirc, she combined it with her Byakugan to enslave the people that would becoma White Zetsu. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:10, November 30, 2014 (UTC) Iirc, the 4th databook says ''the user (Madara or Kaguya) approaches the full moon and opens the Rinne Sharingan, which is reflected on the surface of the moon, shining light onto the surface of the earth which plunges everyone into an eternal sleep. Divine: Deep Forest Emergence is then used on the helpless victims to let the Divine Tree capture them with its roots, so that it can steal their chakra for eternity. Manga says power of Sharingan and Byakugan, databook says Rinne Sharingan and moon, possibly not describing Kaguya's method, so *shrugs* ~•[[User:WindStar7125|''WS7125]]Mod 17:37, November 30, 2014 (UTC) :There was no indication Kaguya used the moon in the manga, but once again, the databook implies otherwise, damnit. Just listen to Tau, @Naruto uzu6254. One question that Kishi should be able to fully answer is why the databook contradicts the manga sometimes. Jeez... ~•[[User:WindStar7125|WS7125]]Mod 18:01, November 30, 2014 (UTC) ::All right so we can add this^ what Tau just said for now, If anything new comes up we can change it.Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 18:15, November 30, 2014 (UTC) Release Technique Article? There's a lot of factors that go into this technique as opposed to a regular genjutsu release ability, such as the requirements and the effects it has. There's a lot here that I think justifies the creation of an article- something like the ''Infinite Tsukuyomi Release Technique. --KirinNOTKarin98 (talk) 21:47, February 11, 2015 (UTC) :Bump--KirinNOTKarin98 (talk) 01:34, February 12, 2015 (UTC) ::No. First, the current article itself is not that tremendous, so there is no need to further truncate it for the sole purpose of there being "a lot of factors." In actuality, there aren't that many. Second, The second bullet point in the "Countering" section of this article is sufficient enough to elaborate on the process of releasing the genjutsu and its aftereffects, but does not have merit to become an individual article. The need to create more stubs on the wiki is nil. Third, "Infinite Tsukuyomi Release Technique?" I suggest looking into this discussion then, in case you were unaware. -- WindStar7125 (talk | ) 02:10, February 12, 2015 (UTC) First Use and Victims Has it ever been explained why humans continued to exist after Kaguya first used Infinite Tsukoyomi? I'm assuming it was somehow cancelled by Hagoromo and Hamura, but if so, that would make her known as a demon after she was sealed. More importantly, there were already so many victims of the technique that got turned into white Zetsus. Are we to assume that thousands of people became white Zetsus while thousands of people survived? Or did Kaguya use a smaller scaled version that only effected a chunk of people, or perhaps multiple smaller scale versions that effected chunks of people at a time? If so, could that be a result of having no moon at the time? The whole idea is very confusing. Diamonddeath (talk) 08:06, February 23, 2015 (UTC) :The answer is: we don't know. Hagoromo devised a way to counter the genjutsu, but reading his words about it to Sasuke and Naruto, it looks like he never got the chance to use such a method. More than anything, Kaguya had no moon to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi on a large scale, since the Moon was created when Hagoromo and Hamura defeated the Ten-Tails. So one would think Kaguya cast the genjutsu on a smaller scale, sort of like what Madara did with Obito. Anyway, since we know nothing for sure, we put nothing in the article.--JO 2008:41, February 23, 2015 (UTC) ::But it's true. There was no moon, so there couldn't be a worldwide Infinite Tsukuyomi. There were still people who feared her, so not all people were trapped in the IT. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:19, February 23, 2015 (UTC) Techniques used As we have it now, technique's used in this world don't have users. I was thinking that we could add the jutsu's to the users actual jutsu list in there infoboxes but have Infinite Tsukuyomi or something in parenthesis next to it. This would avoid any further conflict regarding this and would allow us to remove all those unnecessary trivia section on the technique articles. What say you guys? Munchvtec (talk) 13:56, October 8, 2015 (UTC) :Bump. Munchvtec (talk) 11:56, October 13, 2015 (UTC)